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Stigman Zuwadza
Repercussus
RAZOR Alliance
59
   |
Posted - 2012.10.02 21:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
I trawled my way through this thread as many others did *cough* and I didn't really see any mention of there just being a COUNTER to cloaking. I'll take a leap and assume most things in Eve have a counter of some sort.
Ultimatey I'm pro cloaking, but it has to be said that players perceive this sometimes non-existent threat from a cloaked ship and it can't be denied that it stops people from playing. I agree this is great for the metagame but is it great in the long run for null and getting people out to null? I say NO.
Fly safe. o7
CCP: Cloak Hunters - CSM6: Cautiously positive - Dec 2011 Summit - Minutes (pg. 22).
Cloaking Technicalities Explained - CSM7 Town Hall Meeting - May 2012 |
Stigman Zuwadza
Repercussus
RAZOR Alliance
59
|
Posted - 2012.10.02 22:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:Getting people out to nul is probably one if the greatest powers of a cloak.
I don't think anyone in this thread has an issue with folks travelling cloaked.
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:As for counters, there are 2, proximity and vigilance.
I think we can agree that vigilance will never locate and decloak a cloaked ship in a safe and I find it unlikely that a proximity decloak will occur when the cloaked ship is in a safe.
Folks talk about risk, yet to a degree there is no risk to a cloaked ship in a safe, in fact it could be said that the cloaked ship is far more successful in its activities that most other activities in null and yet it carries near to no risk to undertake this task. So does the act of cloaking require some risk, more than likely ...YES, this activity needs to have it share of risk just like everything else.
Fly safe. o7
CCP: Cloak Hunters - CSM6: Cautiously positive - Dec 2011 Summit - Minutes (pg. 22).
Cloaking Technicalities Explained - CSM7 Town Hall Meeting - May 2012 |
Stigman Zuwadza
Repercussus
RAZOR Alliance
59
|
Posted - 2012.10.02 22:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
CorInaXeraL wrote:
If the cloaker remains cloaked he:
Generates no value (ISK) on his/her own behalf.
Does NOTHING.
By including ISK in brackets you concede that there is value in being cloaked, its just that its not ISK. So your statement about being cloaked doing nothing is by virtue a contradiction as the action causes a loss of ISK through disruption to game play.
I have no issue with this myself, but I still think the activity of prolonged cloaking needs its share of risk or a counter.
Fly safe. o7
CCP: Cloak Hunters - CSM6: Cautiously positive - Dec 2011 Summit - Minutes (pg. 22).
Cloaking Technicalities Explained - CSM7 Town Hall Meeting - May 2012 |
Stigman Zuwadza
Repercussus
RAZOR Alliance
59
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 02:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Borisk Zeltsh wrote:The risk for the cloaker
1st getting into destination system bubble camps and sucker bubble camps with decloaking wrecks
This is encountered by all and any that fly in null so this risk is equal to all except maybe nullified ships.
Borisk Zeltsh wrote:2nd when cloaker decloaks to agress how does cloaker know you dont have your own cloaky alt/m8 cloaked off you
The thread is about AFK cloakers, I'll assume this cloaker decloaking is not AFK and thus actively playing which no-one has a problem with. Also, if there was a counter to cloaking the cloaker could use it to locate other cloaked cloakers cloaking in a cloak. 
Fly safe. o7
CCP: Cloak Hunters - CSM6: Cautiously positive - Dec 2011 Summit - Minutes (pg. 22).
Cloaking Technicalities Explained - CSM7 Town Hall Meeting - May 2012 |
Stigman Zuwadza
Repercussus
RAZOR Alliance
59
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 03:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
Borisk Zeltsh wrote:1st Just becouse camps bubbles are same risk to everyone els doesnt take the fact it a risk to the cloaky
Travelling carries the same risk for all, I'm not really sure where you're going with this, nobody is going to debate something thats equal to all. 
Borisk Zeltsh wrote:2nd if thet dont decloak whats the problem? Ow i get it its your system how dare they be there??
If you read back more than 1 post you would of seen that I mention I'm pro cloaking and all that comes with it. I also think cloaking needs a counter and that AFK cloaking bears little to no risk when undertaking the activity, hence maybe the need for risk ..or maybe a counter (which is my preference).
Fly safe. o7
CCP: Cloak Hunters - CSM6: Cautiously positive - Dec 2011 Summit - Minutes (pg. 22).
Cloaking Technicalities Explained - CSM7 Town Hall Meeting - May 2012 |
Stigman Zuwadza
Repercussus
RAZOR Alliance
59
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 16:17:00 -
[6] - Quote
Noisrevbus wrote:The issue is that your ilk...
..want something in our toolset that can counter a cloaker whos sole intention is to cloak up in a safe for a prolonged duration to disrupt the activities of the system they're in.
This activity is conducted risk free once the cloaker is in their safe. Folks ramble on about risk, this activity carries no risk. It needs a counter. Disrupting activities is GOOD for the meta game, I totally agree with this, whoever, it should not be a risk free activity.
Some say bait them out, the reality is that the cloaker is there with the intention of sitting cloaked in their safe, they are unbaitable, trapping them is not going to happen.
It would seem that any mention of being able to combat this situation is met with responses relating to the poster complaining. I don't see many people talking about why this activity should be risk free when so many talk about activities in null not being risk free.
Fly safe. o7
CCP: Cloak Hunters - CSM6: Cautiously positive - Dec 2011 Summit - Minutes (pg. 22).
Cloaking Technicalities Explained - CSM7 Town Hall Meeting - May 2012 |
Stigman Zuwadza
Repercussus
RAZOR Alliance
59
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 18:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:...either move to a new system yourself or don't worry about them.
I'm sure folks don't want to move or let the cloaker be, they want a method to counter their presense.
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:And we have suggested ways to combat them, be vigilent and team up. You have yet to say why this isn't a counter, but rather seem to ignore thus issue.
Please, please enlighten me as to how vigilance and teaming up will combat a cloaked ship in a safe that doesn't wish to engage in any activity other than being cloaked in a safe? Feel free to offer up an alternative method to combat this situation.
Folks are still skipping over the fact that being cloaked up in a safe carries no risk yet there is evident reward, this shows a lack of balance in the risk vs reward paradigm.
It seems easy for folks to jump on the bandwagon of saying 'cry babies' and 'do something', but the reality of this situation is no-one (most likely) can offer a solution to combating a cloaked ship in a safe, if they could these kinds of threads would not exist.
For all the resistance on this subject, still nobody wishes to discuss the fact that the activity involves no risk yet yields a reward.
If this situation had a counter it would really be of no issue to the cloaked ship in question, surely they would just move to another safe like one does when ones in a non-cloaky ship and trying to avoid being engaged. People want to be active in nabbing cloaky ships, the trouble is they just don't have the toolset to do it.
Fly safe. o7
CCP: Cloak Hunters - CSM6: Cautiously positive - Dec 2011 Summit - Minutes (pg. 22).
Cloaking Technicalities Explained - CSM7 Town Hall Meeting - May 2012 |
Stigman Zuwadza
Repercussus
RAZOR Alliance
59
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 19:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:The afk cloakers actions generate no reward.
Truth be told, even you must find it hard to believe there is no reward to this activity.
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:Your reaction to him, your decision to let him alter your game play is what reduces your reward. It's like someone calling you names. Laugh it off, ignore the problem, and the name calling stops. Give in, cry, show the namecaller that they did effect you, the name calling will continue.
This is not really a risk free activity for the name caller as the individual being called names can confront said name caller and may even bring friends to combat the name caller.
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:In other words, if they have no desire other than to stay cloaked, what threat are they? You counter them by going about your business. They waste their time, and you don't have to worry at all.
I think folks want an active way to counter such situations.
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:So really, since this a meta game action on the part of the AFK cloaker, the solution is a meta game action of not playing their game. Ignore them, they are no threat. if you show them that their action causes no impact, you've won. They can sit afk cloaked as long as they want, it won't matter.
Or maybe the act of continuing to discuss this topic is also a meta game action to try to higlight the lack of risk in this activity when there are evident rewards. This is a sensitive topic for most and I'd like to think we're able to have a sensible discussion without it disseminating into a 'stop being scared' thread. I see no pro counter responses from those that undertake this activity, surely they'd enjoy a little risk with their cloaking. 
Even with all this to and froing still nobody covers the subject of the lack of risk in this activity, there are merely posts attempting to deflect from this fact instead. Maybe I'm missing something and there is a risk ...but probably not.
Fly safe. o7
CCP: Cloak Hunters - CSM6: Cautiously positive - Dec 2011 Summit - Minutes (pg. 22).
Cloaking Technicalities Explained - CSM7 Town Hall Meeting - May 2012 |
Stigman Zuwadza
Repercussus
RAZOR Alliance
59
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 20:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
Quote:So convince me that there is a reward to the afk cloaker.
I don't think I need to convince you or anyone else there is a reward, its a fact that there is a reward at the Corp, Alliance or Coalition level. The activity has a social (demoralizing) and economic impact, lets say any isk making activities which in turn are used to fund players pvp ships ...so less ships to fly, maybe we can throw in some further demoralization. Personally I find it hard to believe folks think there is no strategic reward.
So, we have the reward but wheres the risk? If this activity yielded no reward it would not be undertaken but alas it is and its a very risk aversed activity.
Quote:I'll continue to be the haiduc in the mountains, the chetnik in the forest, the VC in the tunnels, the U boat under your ship.
I don't think anyones looking to affect your choice of game play, maybe because you are actively taking part and what you do has risk.
Fly safe. o7
PS. If I could find the damn cloakers I would and I'd die trying.
CCP: Cloak Hunters - CSM6: Cautiously positive - Dec 2011 Summit - Minutes (pg. 22).
Cloaking Technicalities Explained - CSM7 Town Hall Meeting - May 2012 |
Stigman Zuwadza
Repercussus
RAZOR Alliance
59
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 20:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
Pi Zolo wrote:I would like to invite you to try the life in unknown-space.
Which of course is very different from null, as is null very different from lowsec and lowsec different from hisec. Each carry a level of risk living in these environments. I don't think any of the zones can be directly compared to each other. But I'd agree nullers would do well to adopt some of the attitudes of WH'ers about cloakers.
It has to be said though that the strategic window for a cloaker is a lot shorter being that WH entrances only last for 72 hours and as such the issue is probably less commonplace in a WH, thats not to say it doesn't exist thought.
Fly safe. o7
CCP: Cloak Hunters - CSM6: Cautiously positive - Dec 2011 Summit - Minutes (pg. 22).
Cloaking Technicalities Explained - CSM7 Town Hall Meeting - May 2012 |
Stigman Zuwadza
Repercussus
RAZOR Alliance
60
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 22:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
Noisrevbus wrote:Stigman, it's just an endless repetition of the argument you don't engage in.
The same can be said of all that quote or respond to my posts, i.e. the bit about the risk vs the reward of prolonged cloaking.
Noisrevbus wrote:A. The player is AFK, him being cloaked is no different than you being cloaked or AFK in POS or station.
Personally if I was cloaked I'd have no objection to being eventually found. If I needed to be AFK, I'd simply log off. If I'm in station then by all means camp me in, same with me being at a POS, get your friends and bubble up the POS. Camping and Bubbling may be counters but these counters cannot be applied to a cloaked ship in a safe.
Noisrevbus wrote:B. The player only appear to be AFK, you bait or trap him when he strikes. Until he strikes his impact is none.
This is one of those border line cases I guess, if the cloaker is engaging then hes actively playing, again, no-one has an issue with this.
Noisrevbus wrote:C. If you are paralyzed by the fear of their presence: setup a redundancy to deal with your fear. Get escorts.
A PvP player on an offensive roam also deal with these realities. They have to employ tricks to catch people.
Getting escorts is no counter to a prolonged cloaker in a safe.
Noisrevbus wrote:Hence, if you want to remove the AFK/anti-AFK cloak - suggest alternatives: how should they deal with appearant AFK?
(ie., the act of going to dock when hostiles enter local and appear to be AFK).
You can't take just take their tricks away and keep your own. Then you endorse a malbalance.
I have no objections to people AFK'ing, whether they be cloaked, in a POS or in a station. However, if I was in hostile territory and there was no benefit to me sitting in a system cloaked I would just log off. This means that there is a benefit. Gaining this benefit has no risk. I'd like there to be some risk, how does one generate risk, a counter of some sort maybe, ultimately I couldn't answer that question but if you want some suggestions I'm sure you could hunt down one of the many threads on the topic.
Fly safe. o7
CCP: Cloak Hunters - CSM6: Cautiously positive - Dec 2011 Summit - Minutes (pg. 22).
Cloaking Technicalities Explained - CSM7 Town Hall Meeting - May 2012 |
Stigman Zuwadza
Repercussus
RAZOR Alliance
60
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 23:00:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ginger Barbarella wrote:.. ganking
... gate camping
... market PVP
... shooting someone
I believe all these activities have counters to them unlike prolonged cloaking. Theres probably some measure of risk vs reward with each of them as well, but theres no risk involved in cloaking in a safe even though there are rewards.
If seems peoples fear of a counter to cloaking far exceeds the fears of those that are affected by the cloakers ...going by the responses in this thread. Does this have something to do with having to actively play to counter a counter in order to reap the reward that is currently being gained?
Fly safe. o7
CCP: Cloak Hunters - CSM6: Cautiously positive - Dec 2011 Summit - Minutes (pg. 22).
Cloaking Technicalities Explained - CSM7 Town Hall Meeting - May 2012 |
Stigman Zuwadza
Repercussus
RAZOR Alliance
60
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 23:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
Quote:This meets the "no risk, no ISK" tenet which everyone on the forums seems to agree on.
You say there is no risk, finally someone agrees, in fact everyone on the forums according to you.
Quote:AFK cloaking is the most efficient terror weapon...
AFK cloaking is all about economic warfare, and psychological warfare...
It starves you frothy-mouthed nullbears of income...
So we have no risk yet it yields the benefits you describe. To me this seems unbalanced for the risk involved.
Quote:When a dude tried decloaking, he died instantly...
So he was actively playing, no-one has an issue with this.
I can't envisage somebody expecting personal isk from prolonged cloaking, its done for the great good and to have the impacts you've described, its just that this great good comes free of risk.
Also I don't think its accurate to compare null and WH space, the two are vastly different and the motivations for cloaking are different. As mentioned earlier the strategic window if the same null tactic was applied to a wh just wouldn't work, they're just not comparable.
As for trying to neutralise the treat, its pretty much impossible is the cloakers objective is to stay cloaked in a safe for a prolonged duration ...and reap the rewards (for no risk) that you mentioned above. On the subject of modify ones behaviours, I already agreed with the gent that posted about cloakers in whs.
Fly safe. o7
CCP: Cloak Hunters - CSM6: Cautiously positive - Dec 2011 Summit - Minutes (pg. 22).
Cloaking Technicalities Explained - CSM7 Town Hall Meeting - May 2012 |
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